Single-engine land added to ATP ME
Votes
Joined 02/17/2020 - 7 Posts
Answered By AOPA
How is this accomplished?
The local FSDO, DPE, airman certification branch in OK - all have conflicting opinions.

Can someone direct me to the documented answers - without interpretation.

Planning on operating a single-engine experimental amatuer built (EAB) airplane
14 Replies
Votes
Joined 01/30/2020 - 38 Posts
AOPA Staff Answer
Hi Paul,

Ron has the right idea when talking about the addition of privileges at the ATP level. If you are looking to add additional aircraft ratings at any other level you'll want to follow the guidance in FAR 61.63.

The date window on 61.165 came about by rulemaking. The regulation was updated 9/01/2004, and the window is 1 year from the release. You can look up historical FARs here. The 2004 version of the regulation can be found here.

The real reason why they did this can be found in the Federal Register, to save you searching the document I've included the pertinent text below:

"To ensure that pilots currently operating under the existing §61.31 (k)(2)(iii) comply with its revised provisions, the FAA is establishing a method for giving credit for previous experience gained in an experimental aircraft. This is established in the amendments to §§61.63 (k) and 61.165 (f). Certificated pilots holding a recreational pilot certificate or higher who do not have a category and class rating to operate the experimental aircraft, may apply for a category and class rating with the limitation "experimental aircraft only," and a designation for the make and model aircraft authorized to be operated. Pilots seeking this privilege must have logged at least 5 hours of pilot-in-command time in the same category, class, make, and model of aircraft issued an experimental certificate. The applicant is required to receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized flight instructor who has determined that he or she is proficient to act as pilot in command of the same category and class of aircraft. Finally, the 5 hours of flight time must be logged between September 1, 2004 and August 31, 2005. Upon satisfaction of these requirements, the FAA will issue the applicant a new pilot certificate with the additional category and class rating and the limitation "experimental aircraft only" without any further testing.

The FAA believes that the 5 hours of pilot-in-command time received within the 12-month window ensures recent experience in the category and class of experimental aircraft that the applicant intends to operate. This, combined with an endorsement from a flight instructor, gives the FAA confidence that the applicant has the necessary skills to continue operating that make and model of experimental aircraft safely. The FAA believes this is sufficient to allow these pilots who have been previously operating without a category and class rating under the current regulation to continue operations safely. The FAA believes that it would be an unnecessary additional burden in these cases to require fulfilling the otherwise applicable testing requirements for a category and class rating.

A few commenters, including the NTSB, noted that in the proposed rule language for §61.31 (k)(2), the FAA did not recognize that the holder of a sport pilot certificate may operate an aircraft without having the appropriate category or class rating on the sport pilot certificate. This was an oversight. A sport pilot has category and class privileges that are authorized through endorsements and annotated in the pilot's logbook; therefore, an exception must be made in this section for a sport pilot. Accordingly, the FAA is adding §61.31 (k)(2)(vi). "

For what you're trying to do it seems like you need to follow FAR 61.63 guidance, ensuring you have all the required prerequisite aeronautical experience (if required), then take a practical test, adding ASEL at the private level to you current ATP. If you're adding a class and not a category there is no requirement to meet the aeronautical experience requirement. If you're curious as to the line items covered on the practical test you'll need to look up the Added Rating Task Table in the Private Pilot ACS.
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Joined 06/11/2017 - 703 Posts
You meet the relevant aeronautical experience requirements of 61.159 and then take an ATP practical test for ASEL in accordance with 14 CFR 61.165(e) and the ASEL-applicable elements of all the Areas/Tasks in the ATP PTS.  No additional written test or training/endorsement from an instructor is required.  See also 61.153 for other eligibility requirements.
Votes
Joined 02/17/2020 - 7 Posts
Thank you Ron,

Yet, what if the ATP pilot (retired) is only interested in SEL to Private pilot standards.
It also appears 61.165 that he can receive an endorsement for just the Type - if in experimental category
Votes
Joined 06/11/2017 - 703 Posts
I don't see anything in 61.165 which appears to say that.  Can you point out the specific section which you think allows that?

OTOH, there is the clause in 61.31(d)(2) allowing you SOLO ONLY privileges based on training and a CFI endorsement in a category/class for which you do not hold the rating.  That would allow you to fly an ASEL by yourself, and it would not be limited to E-AB.  The issue of Type wouldn't be relevant since that only applies to aircraft for which a Type rating is required, and I doubt your E-AB aircraft would require a Type rating.

That said, you might want to ask your insurer if that would be a satisfactory situation.  They might not want to insure you in an ASEL without the ASEL on your ticket other than at the much higher Student Pilot rates.
Votes
Joined 02/17/2020 - 7 Posts

61.165
(g) Category class ratings for the operation of aircraft with experimental certificates. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a) through (f) of this section, a person holding an airline transport certificate may apply for a category and class rating limited to a specific make and model of experimental aircraft, provided -

(1) The person has logged at least 5 hours flight time while acting as pilot in command in the same category, class, make, and model of aircraft that has been issued an experimental certificate;

(2) The person has received a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who has determined that he or she is proficient to act as pilot in command of the same category, class, make, and model of aircraft for which application is made; and

(3) The flight time specified in paragraph (g)(1) of this section must be logged between September 1, 2004 and August 31, 2005.

What might be the justification for the date window?

Votes
Joined 06/11/2017 - 703 Posts
I'd have to do some historical research to find out why the FAA chose to make this allowance for people who did those things 15 years ago.  I do know that for a brief while, the FAA allowed pilots to fly solo in E-AB aircraft for which they lacked the appropriate Cat/Class ratings without any instructor involvement.  That is no longer in 61.31.  But the situation today is that unless you did all that 15 years ago, the issue is moot.

As for adding the ASEL at the Private level, you'd have to comply with the rules in 61.63(c) for an additional class rating.  That would mean obtaining enough training from a CFI to convince him/her that you have sufficient knowledge and are sufficiently competent to pass an Additional Class rating practical test at the Private Pilot level.  The instructor would then endorse your logbook and sign the 8710-1 application recommending you for that practical test.  The necessary Areas/Tasks are listed in the Additional Rating/Task Table on page A-12 of the Private Pilot-Airplane ACS.

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs_change_1.pdf

The back of your ticket would then read:

Airplane Multiengine Land
Airplane Single Engine Land (Limited to Private privileges)

FWIW, if you did that, you'd have instrument privileges in ASEL as well as AMEL on the basis of your ATP certificate.
Votes
Joined 02/17/2020 - 7 Posts
Thank you Ron,

I appreciate the guidance, interpretation, and background.
Convincing my local DPE is the next step.
Training a current ATP pilot to the Private ACS standards in a tailwheel EAB - is the easy and fun part.
Votes
Joined 06/11/2017 - 703 Posts
Paul Leadabrand:
Thank you Ron,

Convincing my local DPE is the next step.
 

Chapter 7 Section 7 of the Examiner's Handbook covers this.  If your local DPE has a problem figuring this out, s/he should contact his/her POI at the FSDO.  Ultimately, AFS-600 in OKC can explain it.

Votes
Joined 02/17/2020 - 7 Posts
Thank you Ron, good supporting material.
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Joined 01/14/2018 - 40 Posts
I'm a commercial helicopter pilot that has certificate endorsements for private privilege's - fixed wing single engine land / single engine sea / multiengine land / instrument airplane. These types of endorsements appear on the reverse side of your Commercial or ATP certificate and are referred to as 'endorsements'. I believe I've only met and flown with one person that had 'All types and Categories' 'No limitations' endorsement on an ATP certificate. He was my DPE from the FAA in Oklahoma. It is not the same as a tail wheel endorsement, which is a log book entry / endorsement by your CFI.

When I was adding different types of aircraft it was explained to me that the airman knowledge part did not have to be completed again for the private, commercial, or ATP if it was completed before for another type aircraft (Rotorcraft, Helicopter, Balloon, etc...). I did all the ground courses over again and took the FAA written tests anyway because some of the rules are different. To my surprise I got the same score 30 years later (I kept my test score sheet in my log book for all these years)

The Private Privileges - fixed wing single engine land endorsement will appear on the back side of your ATP certificate after you have completed and logged the required flight training for fixed wing single engine land and then completed the ACS flight test with a DPE for the level of endorsement you want added (Private, Commercial, ATP)
"Instrument Airplane' does not have to be flown during the ACS flight test or added again.  It remains on the reverse of your certificate however you can not exercise the privilege of Instrument airplane flight unless you are current. If not, that would be another DPE check ride to instrument ACS standards. $$$$$

If you add ATP fixed wing single engine land, you are required to have all the flight qualifications logged for that endorsement, and then take the ACS flight test with a DPE flying the aircraft to the ATP standard listed in the ACS for ATP fixed wing single engine land.
If you add  Private Privileges fixed wing single engine land, the ACS for private require a prerequisite of 'solo' flight. Yes, this means you have to have the 'solo' flight for single engine land as required under the ACS Airman Certification Standards. To fly 'solo' in a fixed wing single engine land aircraft you need a CFI endorsement to fly 'solo' in a single engine land aircraft. Yes, this seems a bit wacky but true.
It does get even weirder. There was a question as to my ability to fly in Class B airspace as a student pilot for the aircraft I sought a certificate to fly. The regulations prohibit student pilots in Class B airspace without an endorsement. Yes, I had to get an endorsement in my logbook to fly in Class B airspace as a student pilot for the aircraft rating I sought, even though I already had a pilot certificate. (At the time it was the Washington DC TCA that turned into class B airspace, the TCA rules just changed to Class B rules.)

My DPE recently wanted to just add commercial fixed wing single engine land to my certificate during my instrument fixed wing flight check ride. But there was a problem with adding the fixed wing single engine land commercial, because I did not have the prerequisite flight training logged as listed in the Airman Certification Standards (basically a few hours prep for the flight test), and the DPE flight test was going to require more strict flight standards like plus or minus 50 feet vs. plus or minus 100 feet during the instrument flight portion of the test on a warm afternoon flying instrument procedures close to each other over fields that would make a great place to fly gliders. Even worse and at additional cost, I was also going to have to fly much longer to complete all the other now required portions of the ACS flight examination. DPEs are not supposed to go around the circuit and sign you off anymore.
The DPEs are required to go through each listed procedure in the Airman Certification Standard for the added endorsement of Private Privilege's - Airplane Single Engine Land. 

Oddly, you don't have to add 'instrument airplane'. Yes, you can fly Private Fixed Wing Single Engine Land 'instrument', as long as you are current in instrument airplane. Oddly, Instrument helicopter flight doesn't count toward instrument airplane in currency. If you have not maintained your instrument proficiency you will have to take an instrument proficiency flight test to the ACS for fixed wing. $$$$$

If you really want to blow the minds of the FAA / AFS-600 in OKC
I hope you are current with your airplane instrument rating. You could file an instrument flight plan as a solo student pilot.
Yes, legally your instrument rating applies to 'airplanes'. If you are current in multiengine, you are current in single engine. 
I bet that hasn't been done before.

That would get a controllers attention.